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Posted: 2017-12-08 00:16

Great post. Some of the links ( 8775 a representative sample? 8776 , 8775 accosted by a mouth-breathing troglodyte 8776 , 8775 The Entitlement And Misogyny Of Nerd Culture 8776 , 8775 Sex, Nerds, Entitlement, and 8776 , 8775 Is Nerd Culture Filled With Entitled Crybabies? 8776 , 8775 Why Nerd Culture Must Die 8776 , and 8775 scare stories 8776 ) are missing the 8775 http colon slash slash 8776 part and are therefore broken. Most of these are links (and the one that isn 8767 t is The Daily Mail so maybe it should be).

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The thing is, as with many other masculine insecurities, this is predominantly in our heads. At 5 8767 8 8798 , I 8767 m short for an American caucasian male. Worse, I 8767 m the shortest of all my friends who range from 5 8767 6o 8776 on the short side, to 6 8767 7 8798 on the tall side. But my height has only been as much of a problem as I 8767 d let it be. Over the years, I 8767 ve dated and slept with women of all heights, ranging from 5 8767 6 8798 to six-foot tall amazons. The trick is understanding how to make height less of an issue.

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I sort of doubt it here, though. Because in roughly the same timeframe, Scott became a tenure{d,-track} (depending on timing) professor, well known throughout the CS world and the internet as a whole. I grew up in high school reading his blog posts and thinking I wanted to be a theory professor like him. (I since decided I like certain other things more, but that 8767 s not the point.) This isn 8767 t high status in the world at large, but it 8767 s high status in a decent chunk of it, and that 8767 s where (to my limited understanding) Scott Aaronson has done most of his dating. I worry in the nicest to Scott way that I possibly can be that 8767 s a major reason for his success: women in STEM think he 8767 s a cool rockstar quantum computing badass. Which is reasonable of them to think and reasonable of him to make use of but means that I 8767 m pretty sure old-Scott-Aaronson would indeed find cold reactions to the same interest.

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They 8767 re not bitter in the same way that someone who says, 8775 I 8767 ve learned to forgive black people for being violent thugs, because it 8767 s in their savage nature and they can 8767 t help it 8776 isn 8767 t bitter. Which is to say they continue harboring intensely negative beliefs about their counterparts which are indistinguishable from an embittered person 8767 s, but sometimes put on airs of stoicism about it.

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I suspect that at least part of what is going on here is that by looking at 7th graders with scores above 755 you are looking at the extreme right tail of the mathematical ability distribution. A score of 755 is roughly 7 standard deviations above the mean for high school seniors, but (guessing based on some numbers from that paper) maybe more like 9 standard deviations above the mean for 7th graders. This is going to greatly magnify the effect of the larger standard deviation of male scores.

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Shifting to maximum ideal attractiveness, it is not true that a “reasonably thin” women can rest on her laurels. There are all sorts of other demands society puts on her if she wants to reach that model level of attractiveness. Is her hair glossy, thick, the right color, the right style, and freshly blowdried every day? Add in requirements for skin, face, clothes, teeth, body…it never stops, and as Daniel Speyer says the only real way to succeed is Photoshop.

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I 8767 ve been reading her stuff for years, and she 8767 s certainly a good person. Good people do sometimes get things wrong, and I think she gets Scott Aaronson wrong. In the better bits of the OP, Scott Alexander makes a good case for there being a double-standard in how Laurie has approached this, and I suspect that she would acknowledge this herself, despite enormous tribal incentives not to do so.

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For what it s worth, as a guy of average height, it never occurred to me until I started reading online personals that height was A Thing that anyone would be concerned about in relation to physical attraction. Maybe it s because I m kind of oblivious, or maybe it s because I was really skinny growing up and made my peace a long, long time ago with the idea that the women I dated were very likely to be larger than me in some respect. Anyway, I can t be the only one out there who doesn t give a crap either way!

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Tangential: So, sometimes drivers honk their horns at each other to signal 8775 Watch where you 8767 re going, 8776 or some such. I 8767 ve had the experience where I 8767 ve screwed up, been honked at, and corrected. I 8767 ve then wished there was a second, entirely distinct horn sound I could make that would signal 8775 You 8767 re right! My bad! Sorry about that! 8776 I feel like the roads would be more civil if that existed. (You can wave sheepishly, but it 8767 s not always very visible.)

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Irenist, I agree with you. It 8767 s a much more diverse world out there than most of us can have the humility to accept. For me, this is not necessarily a reason to consider that we all suck because we 8767 re human, but only to show some compassion and, indeed, cut some slack. There are even some pro-life conservative feminists out there ever come across Holly Hamilton-Bleakley? http:///

Ms. Penny may be right that her ideal feminism doesn 8767 t do that. Then again, my ideal masculinity doesn 8767 t involve or sexual harassment. Ideals are always pretty awesome. But women still have the right to complain when actual men them, and I 8767 m pretty sure nerds deserve the right to complain that actual feminists are, a lot of the time, focused way more on nerd-baiting than actual feminism, and that much the same people who called us 8775 gross 8776 and 8775 fat 8776 and 8775 loser 8776 in high school are calling us 8775 gross 8776 and 8775 misogynist 8776 and 8775 entitled 8776 now, and for much the same reasons.

I was going to comment on the milady thing, but he more or less got it right. I was overcompensating for shyness in college time to time by adopting slightly archaic norms on the basis more or less of having an affection for medieval norms based on period games, movies, and books, on the one hand, and being told that deference towards women was a way of attracting them. I don 8767 t think it particularly helped or for that matter, was noticed.

I don 8767 t believe its 8766 feminism 8767 thats THE problem, but I think that making people believe that plucking up the courage to ask a girl out is a negative lesson that some have taken from feminism. I suspect that this is one among many things that makes nerds feel like outsiders and that the impact that it has had on some has been far greater (indeed that seems beyond dispute considering this article).

THe Atwood quote is a bit of a cheap shot, but it seemed to me to sum up the problem with the quote from Scott Alexander I started with. If you claim your suffering is worse than other people 8767 s and follow it up by citing a bunch of studies about how men have more trouble dating than women, then I think it 8767 s legitimate for me to point out that this is basically a demonstration of your privilege in action.

No but saying as polite as I m going to get implies that others are getting politer responses. Eliza was trying to explain to you that this isn t something special for you, there aren t all these guys out there getting kind rejections from women and you are not. Rather not responding is a coping mechanism women choose to do because they were burned in the past. Women have learned that if they respond to a man with a rejection, even a polite one, that the men will not normally say, Okay cool, good luck! but will instead either insult them Well I didn t want you anyway fatty or keep pushing Come on, you know you want to!

Loved the article, by the way. I know how hard it is to actually feel strongly enough to bother writing about this issue yet avoiding the unavoidable trap of overstating the case & overgeneralising about 8766 feminists 8767 (I re-edited my own foray into the issue a ridiculous number of times but still missed a few blind spots of my own, I think), and this was mostly very clear and judicious, IMO.

To be perhaps overly honest, I can relate to the attitude in this post, as I sort of had similar thoughts in high school, as a bit of a loser. I also choose female characters in video games, have long-ish hair (I always wanted long hair but I never actually made it there), my pointer finger is longer than my ring. Now that I 8767 m in college and I have a solid group of male friends and am fairly romantically successful, it seems appalling to me that I ever felt this way.

That seems very far removed from what he was saying. Instead, he suggested that he was miserable in spite of his privilege that in fact it was knowledge of the ways that men can harm women that contributed to his abject misery. (Since he couldn 8767 t find any guidance as to how to approach women non-harmfully.) And that fear of being shouted at for being privileged worsened the problem by forcing him to remain silent.

Saying I m not responsible for other people s emotions isn t about getting rid of personal responsibility or implying that I m faultless. I don t want to hurt other people. I don t like hurting other people or causing conflict and that s both a plus and a negative in my life. My mental health such as it is cannot survive taking personal responsibility for the emotions of others. That s what I meant by that.

So, what we have is a case of nerd men assuming that the constraints that apply in their lives cannot possibly apply to women, and nerd women assuming something similar in return. Both are picking examples of the opposite gender 8767 s behaviour as the true measure of their preferences, treating their speech as being either in bad faith or so unreliable as to be useless. My guess is that this is precisely the wrong model for examining the dating market, at least as it applies to nerds. There may be people celebrities, the very wealthy, the truly unscrupulous for whom the exit model holds more explanatory power, but these people are a minority. Interestingly, they 8767 re a very salient minority in terms of how our society thinks about dating and sex, which may be why we end up over-applying that model.